What It's Like To Be... with Dan Heath

Sketching choreography in airport bathroom stalls, coaching Usher on exactly how to hold a strawberry, and fighting for fair pay for dancers and choreographers with Galen Hooks, a commercial dance choreographer in Los Angeles. Can you copyright a dance routine? And what does "body conscious" mean at an audition? LINKS & REFERENCES Galen's website, Instagram, and YouTube channel Watch "River" hereUsher's "Ruin" video, choreographed by GalenGalen was nominated for a VMA for choreograph...

Listening for harmonics inside a note, dealing with awkward situations in people's homes, and chasing down nearly imperceptible flaws for world-class pianists with Peter Stumpf, a piano tuner in Pittsburgh. Why does he bite his tuning fork like a cigar? And what does it mean to "stretch an octave"? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW? Leave us a voicemail at (919) 213-0456....

Contorting inside a floating pool bubble, overriding her body’s false alarms while bending backward, and stretching and strengthening six days a week for a four-minute act with Lisbeth Mikoleit, a contortionist in Las Vegas. Why does she train with a mouth guard? And what’s a “triple fold”? DID YOU SHOUT US OUT SOMEWHERE? Email a screenshot or link to shoutout@whatitslike.com GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@...

GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW? Leave us a voicemail at (919) 213-0456. We’ll ask you to answer two questions: 1. What’s a word or phrase that only someone from your profession would be likely to know and what does it mean? 2. What’s a specific story you tell your friends that happened on the job? It could be funny, sad, anxiety-making, pride-inducing or otherwise. We ...

Poking a finger through rotted structural columns, hunting down the water leaks behind construction defects, and keeping cool under hostile cross-examination with Jorge McCormack, a forensic architect in Florida. Why do forensic architects avoid saying the word "mold"? And what's a "Daubert motion"? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW? Leave us a voicemail at (919) 213-0456...

Sprawling on the floor like a starfish beside an overwhelmed teen, staging Friday prank calls to fellow teachers, and orchestrating the chaos of a self-contained classroom with Sierra Patrick, a special ed teacher in South Carolina. What does she wish people understood about nonverbal students? And what's the most valuable piece of technology in her classroom? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com ...

Chanting bids to whip up a bidding war, shipping $750,000 of Magic: The Gathering cards by armored car, and knowing exactly when to bring the gavel down with Joe Bodnar, an auctioneer in New Jersey. How does he separate junk from treasure? And what does it mean to "break up the pool"? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW? Leave us a voicemail at (919) 213-0456. We’ll ask you...

Sleuthing through patient histories for the clue everyone else missed, asking patients about caves, scorpions, and shaman retreats, and sounding the alarm on a potential Ebola case with Dr. Boghuma Titanji, an infectious disease doctor. What annoys ID doctors about the TV show House? And which infections can she diagnose by smell? LINKS & REFERENCES Psittacosis is a rare bacterial infection spread from birds, explained on the CDC's psittacosis pageA 2026 hantavirus outbreak on a cruise sh...

Loading the mail truck before the day begins, dealing with aggressive dogs and bad weather, and keeping a neighborhood connected by showing up every day with John Ayala, a retired mail carrier in Los Angeles. How did a golf club help him deliver packages? And what does a mail carrier learn about us from our mail? Thanks to Mike, one of our listeners, who reached out to suggest we talk with John after reading a profile of him in the LA Times. GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whati...

Digging line to redirect the country's fiercest wildland fires, sleeping in the dirt after a 16-hour day, and turning physical endurance into a public service with Ben Strahan, a hotshot crew superintendent in California. What does a wildfire sound like up close? And where does a crew go when the fire threatens to overrun them? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW? Leave us ...

Pitching airline executives during route-planning speed dates, opening a $1.7 billion new terminal, and making space for emotional airport reunions with Christina Cassotis, CEO of Pittsburgh International Airport. Why does she have a beekeeper on contract? And what did a missing freight elevator teach her about leadership? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW? Leave us a voi...

Designing runways for hot air and heavy planes, inspecting pavement cracks with measuring wheels, and protecting vicious little owls from construction crews with Eileen Vélez-Vega, a civil aviation engineer in Puerto Rico. What does the color of runway lights reveal to a pilot? And what's a "spall"? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW? Leave us a voicemail at (919) 213-0456...

Sequencing departures like a moving puzzle, scrambling when a jet takes off without clearance, and catching what radar misses with a glance out the window with Michael Rejent, an air traffic controller. What does "tally ho" mean to a pilot? What phrase makes every controller in the cab look up? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW? Leave us a voicemail at (919) 213-0456. We’...

Hugging a mother through an anxiety attack, bidding for the best routes, and absorbing strangers' confessions at 35,000 feet with Linda Beall, a flight attendant. What does it mean when the cabin bells ring three or four times? And what makes a trip a “dog”? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW? Leave us a voicemail at (919) 213-0456. We’ll ask you to answer two questions: 1...

Shooting cat-three landings in the fog, using the “voice of God” on unruly passengers, and declaring Mayday after an engine fire with Paul Drusch, a commercial airline pilot. Why does the pilot’s paycheck start with the parking brake? And what does “sterile cockpit” mean? (Spoiler: it doesn’t mean “clean.”) GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW? Leave us a voicemail at (919) ...

Athletes get all the glory, but there are countless people around them making the games happen - from referees making judgments, to vendors in the stands hawking snacks and beer. In this episode from The StoryCorps Podcast, drawn from our archive of the largest single collection of human voices ever recorded, you’ll hear from the people on the sidelines. GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT T...

Untangling who gets to speak for a dying patient, weighing a treatment's benefits against its burdens, and searching for clarity in the grayest corners of healthcare with Esther Berkowitz, a clinical ethicist. What is the "dignity of risk"? And how do you know which "version" of a person to trust? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW? Leave us a voicemail at (919) 213-0456. ...

Grinding through 16-hour shifts, standing behind inmates (never in front), and trying to stay human in an inhuman environment with Bill Farrell, a correctional officer in Massachusetts. What happens when an officer gets "frozen"? And why does the sound of scuffling sneakers stop him in his tracks? LINKS & REFERENCES Bill was the co-creator of a short documentary about the physical and mental toll of being a correctional officer. It's called "Behind The Wall".GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? E...

Harvesting five million bushels of wheat and corn from Texas to Montana, outrunning hailstorms that decimate a year's income in 20 minutes, and running a multimillion-dollar convoy of equipment down the highway with Josh Beckley, a third-generation custom harvester from Kansas. Why do farmers outsource the harvesting of their own crops? And what happens when you drive a combine into a ditch? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us ...

Guiding grieving families through arrangement meetings, orchestrating meaningful memorial services within days, and preparing bodies for viewing with Heather Hill, a funeral director in North Carolina. What's different about doing makeup on a dead person? And what is it like to field a death call? LINKS & REFERENCES Heather writes about her work on her website.She's a funeral director at Renaissance Funeral Home in Raleigh, North Carolina."The Future is Female" - American Funeral Dir...

Landing the Perseverance rover on Mars, working in clean rooms to minimize the microbial bug count, and slogging through hundreds of engineering trade-offs with Swati Mohan, an aerospace engineer at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. What are the "seven minutes of terror"? And is there evidence of past life on Mars? LINKS & REFERENCES: Watch Swati voice the landing of Perseverance in 2021.Swati's official NASA bioMore about the Perseverance roverSwati Mohan spoke with us in a personal capa...

Defusing a crisis after an ambassador hinted at a preemptive strike on Russia, delivering demarches in multiple languages, and surviving the frantic evacuation of the Kabul embassy with John Johnson, a retired diplomat who spent more than twenty years in the US Foreign Service. Do diplomats still send "cables" in the 21st century? And what does "not/not" mean? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com ...

Wiring a neighborhood back to life after a tornado, coveting the work of helicopter linemen in Faraday suits, and surviving the collapse of a rotten utility pole with Elden Rivas, a journeyman lineman in Houston, Texas. What is the one sound on the crew radio that stops every lineman cold? And why does a squirrel on a transformer mean easy money? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON ...

Suspending the licenses of unsafe restaurant operators, hunting down the origins of foodborne illness outbreaks, and eliciting truthful answers from anxious managers with Justin Dwyer, a health inspector in Peoria, Illinois. What happens when a restaurant locks the door on an inspector? And why should you never wash your Thanksgiving turkey? LINKS & REFERENCES Upstream: The Quest to Solve Problems Before They Happen by Dan Heath. You can find the audiobook at Audible, Spotify, and Apple B...

Hurtling down an ice track at nearly 100mph, perfecting the practice of visualization, and shaving off hundredths of a second with Kaillie Humphries, an Olympic bobsledder. What's the most feared track in the world? And how do athletes practice when there's no ice in the summer? This episode originally aired on December 17th, 2024. GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW? Leave...

Negotiating cases in which neither spouse wants custody of the cat, setting clients' expectations about what's legally possible (versus what feels "right"), and finding hope in people's ability to bounce back from dark times with Lucy Stewart-Gould, a divorce lawyer in London. What simple question can break open a deadlocked settlement? And what's a "jurisdiction race"? IF YOU LIKE THIS EPISODE: Check out what it's like to be a criminal defense attorney, a forensic accountant, or a couples th...

Tinkering with the recipe for gingerbread cake until it's right, adjusting to the variability of local grains, and cherishing the quiet mornings when the sun fills the bakery windows with Sophie Williams, a baker in Bellingham, Washington. What happens when you bake all your sourdough starter by accident? And what's a "starch attack"? Links & References: Sophie owns and operates Raven Bakery in Bellingham, Washington.The Economics of Everyday ThingsBullshit Jobs by David GraeberGOT A...

Sculpting mullets on Havanese, enduring countless bites, and surviving level-five furnadoes with Aaron Williams, a dog groomer in Alabama. Why is the grooming table his most powerful psychological tool? And which part of the grooming process is most dreaded by dogs? You can see Aaron in action at his YouTube channel. Want more episodes featuring professions who work with animals? We've spoken with a veterinarian, a cattle rancher, and a dog trainer. GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jo...

Judging the permissibility of real-time battle decisions, advising commanders how to handle soldier misconduct, and assessing "hostile acts" and "hostile intent" with Lieutenant Colonel Susan Upward, a Marine Corps JAG. What does "dispo" mean in military justice? And how do you tell a commander his idea is colossally stupid -- while keeping your job? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE...

Weaving songs and dances into classroom lessons, having difficult conversations with parents, and navigating the second-day meltdowns of kindergarten students with Yaronda Kilgo, an elementary school teacher. What did a backpack full of snacks teach her about empathy? And what makes her "extra"? We're teaming up this month with GiveDirectly to collect money that will go directly to Rwandan families. Dan will match every dollar raised from What It's Like To Be... listeners. Donate now: givedir...

Managing Ebola treatment centers in Sierra Leone, coordinating with government officials and local leaders, and advocating for the radical simplicity of cash aid with Grace Jackson, a humanitarian worker. When low-income families are given money, what's the first thing they often buy? And what is “CMCoord”? This episode is part of a fundraising effort called Pods Fight Poverty. We're teaming up with GiveDirectly to collect money that will go directly to Rwandan families. Dan will match every ...

Reinterpreting centuries-old classical music, marking up symphonies with notes on phrasing, and turning mid-performance disasters into unforgettable moments with Carlos Miguel Prieto, a music director and conductor. How do you get an orchestra to pick up the tempo? (Spoiler: Not by waving your hands faster.) And how does a performance of Beethoven's Fifth sound different today from a century ago? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Emai...

Calculating electrical loads, getting zapped by 277 volts, and savoring the freedom of the skilled trades with Doug Powell, a master electrician. Why are blue-collar professions growing increasingly more attractive? And what are the telltale signs of a hack electrician? Doug runs Lumen Brothers Electric Company with his business partner, Josh. GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE...

Scaling outfield walls to pick off home runs, bouncing between La Quinta hotels and sleeper buses, and chasing the dream of the majors with Trayvon Robinson, a professional baseball player. What superstitions did he live by? And what did he do to make SportsCenter in his major league debut? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW? Leave us a voicemail at (919) 213-0456. We’ll a...

Monitoring global networks of seismometers, evangelizing for stronger buildings instead of better predictions, and measuring LA's slow crawl toward Alaska with Lucy Jones, a seismologist in Southern California. Why does she begin counting when she feels the earth start to shake? And how did a nuclear test ban treaty end up boosting the science of earthquakes? Lucy is author of the book The Big Ones: How Natural Disasters Have Shaped Us (and What We Can Do About Them). She also founded the Dr....

Butchering whole alligators, costing out every plate down to the garnish, and perfecting grilled sweetbreads with Cindy Wolf, an executive chef. What was it like to cook for Julia Child? And what popular item does she wish she could purge from the menu? Dan's latest book is Reset: How to Change What's Not Working. It's out in hard cover and as an audiobook. GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WAN...

Writing for the ear rather than the eye, racing to meet teleprompter deadlines, and recasting lost memories as timeless advice with Stephen Krupin, a speechwriter. What was it like to write speeches for President Obama? And when can a speaker's desire for "authenticity" go too far? GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.com WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW? Leave us a voicemail at (919) 213-0456. We’ll ask you to...

Crafting floral masterpieces that disappear within hours, dealing with the eccentricities of wealthy clients, and making 3am runs to the flower market with Paul Hawkins, a floral decorator in England. Why is it a no-no to mix red and white flowers? And what's it like to design floral decorations for royalty? You can see some of Paul's work on his Instagram page. GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES: Email us at partnerships@whatitslike.co...

Cracking automotive mysteries one diagnostic code at a time, mastering the art of quoting complicated repairs, and playing the "what kind of noise is it?" guessing game with Justin Snodgrass, a car mechanic who owns his own shop. Why should $19.99 oil changes make you suspicious? And why might your local car mechanic decline to work on new cars? IF YOU LIKE THIS EPISODE: Check out what it's like to be a forensic accountant, a welder, or a software engineer. GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? ...

Counting out pills in fives, working with million-dollar drugs, and ensuring the right medication in the right dose gets delivered at the right moment with Rose Davin, a pharmacy technician in Rochester, New York. What are the layers of protection that prevent pharmacy employees from absconding with opioids? And what happens if a technician accidentally drops a pill on the floor? IF YOU LIKE THIS EPISODE: Check out what it's like to be a nurse, a veterinarian, or a hospice nurse. GOT A COMMEN...

Forecasting what a business will earn and spend, allocating resources among teams clamoring for more, and practicing professional skepticism without killing the vibe with Steve Love, a chief financial officer. What does it feel like to confess to a board of directors that you've made a potentially catastrophic error? And what happens when business leaders accidentally release non-public information? IF YOU LIKE THIS EPISODE: Check out what it's like to be a turnaround consultant, a fore...

Boiling briskets for five hours, escorting obnoxious customers to the door, and preserving the ritual of saying "hello" with Steven Peljovich, who runs Michael's Deli in Boston. What makes a deli different from a sandwich shop? And, until recently, why did he resist taking orders online? Read The Boston Globe story that Steven mentioned about longtime customer Rita Manor. IF YOU LIKE THIS EPISODE: Check out what it's like to be a stadium beer vendor, a barman, or an ice cream truck driver. GO...

Choreographing massages to Mozart, enforcing cancellation policies with beloved clients, and shutting down callers seeking "undraped sessions" with Allissa Haines, a massage therapist. What made her cry in her car after one particular house call? And what is "effleurage”? In this episode, Dan recommended The Work of Art by Adam Moss, a book about how artists make their work. Check it out here. IF YOU LIKE THIS EPISODE: Check out what it's like to be a couples therapist, a hair stylist, or a p...

Scaling three-story rope ladders up the sides of ships, memorizing every rock and current in a harbor, and narrowly avoiding catastrophic collisions with Captain Grant Livingstone, a retired harbor pilot. What do you do when your engine and anchors fail in heavy fog? And how do you dock a ship the size of the Empire State Building? Grant and his twin brother Captain George Livingstone co-authored the recent book Shiphandling, The Beautiful Game. IF YOU LIKE THIS EPISODE: Check out what it's l...

Comforting patients as they prepare to transition, navigating end-of-life regrets and frayed relationships, and providing support and advice for fearful families with Heather Meyerend, a retired hospice nurse. How does she know when the end is imminent? And what has the work taught her about the different ways we deal with death? Heather is a contributing author to the book Resilient Faith: Dare To Believe. She was also profiled in The New Yorker in 2016: "A Tender Hand in the Presence of Dea...

Calming scared cats with pheromone sprays, advising families how to balance their pet's well-being with budget realities, and diagnosing mysterious animal maladies with Dr. Hindatu Mohammed, a veterinarian in Austin, TX. What breed of dog, when having its nails clipped, responds as though it's being murdered? And how did an injured ant shape her career choice? IF YOU LIKE THIS EPISODE: Check out what it's like to be a dog trainer, a nurse, or a brain surgeon. GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Emai...

Tracing mysterious errors to their source, jousting with product managers, and rolling out new features (without breaking the old ones) with Taylor Hughes, a software engineer. How did one failed software fix ruin Christmas for kids around the country? And what is "spaghetti code"? Taylor is currently a co-founder and the CTO at Hypernatural.ai. IF YOU LIKE THIS EPISODE: Check out what it's like to be a forensic accountant, a creative director, or a brain surgeon. Learn more about StoryCorps ...

Mediating pickleball noise disputes, shepherding communities through thorny decisions, and practicing radical pragmatism with Martha Bennett, city manager of Lake Oswego, Oregon. What is it that makes public hearings so noxious? And what's the difference between "Big P" and "Little P" politics? IF YOU LIKE THIS EPISODE: Check out what it's like to be a high school principal, a PR crisis manager, or a turnaround consultant. GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPON...

Pouring pints for thirsty tourists, defusing situations with drunk patrons, and finding flow in the Friday night rush with Brian Wynne, a barman in Dublin. What caused one customer to throw a dog at Brian? And what is "craic"? If you'd like to reach out to Brian, email Dan at dan@whatitslike.com IF YOU LIKE THIS EPISODE: Check out what it's like to be an ice cream truck driver, a stand-up comedian, or a London cabbie. GOT A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION? Email us at jobs@whatitslike.com FOR SPONSORSH...

Zapping parts of the brain to know where to cut, operating a mouth-controlled microscope that's worth more than a house, and carrying the weight of life-or-death decisions with Dr. Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa, a brain surgeon at the Mayo Clinic. How do you preserve a mathematician's expertise when removing tumors? And how did he go from picking tomatoes to performing brain surgery? Dr. Q wrote about his remarkable journey to the operating room in the book, Becoming Dr. Q: My Journey from Migran...